Comments on: Didio and the Batgirls http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/ Independent Opinions on Comics of All Kinds Mon, 13 Feb 2012 23:03:02 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Laura http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/comment-page-1/#comment-30882 Laura Sun, 23 Jul 2006 05:26:09 +0000 http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/#comment-30882 Hey, I remember in the collection War Drums, how there were two different stories both dealing with how Steph Brown was fired as Robin, giving different senarios. If a retcon was apparent just a week or so between them, why not just retcon this fiasco? Hey, I remember in the collection War Drums, how there were two different stories both dealing with how Steph Brown was fired as Robin, giving different senarios. If a retcon was apparent just a week or so between them, why not just retcon this fiasco?

]]> By: Johanna http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/comment-page-1/#comment-30471 Johanna Wed, 12 Jul 2006 10:41:07 +0000 http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/#comment-30471 Oh, forgive me for missing that - I'm glad we agree. For some reason, superhero writers have a hard time quietly ignoring anything. They instead have to write "picking the scab" stories that only wind up raising more questions than answers. (I'm thinking of things like trying to justify or secret identities or when Gotham was sealed off... I've forgotten the name for that big event now!) Hmmm, good cast on that. Oh, forgive me for missing that – I’m glad we agree.

For some reason, superhero writers have a hard time quietly ignoring anything. They instead have to write “picking the scab” stories that only wind up raising more questions than answers. (I’m thinking of things like trying to justify or secret identities or when Gotham was sealed off… I’ve forgotten the name for that big event now!)

Hmmm, good cast on that.

]]> By: Rob Staeger http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/comment-page-1/#comment-30467 Rob Staeger Wed, 12 Jul 2006 05:38:13 +0000 http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/#comment-30467 I'm not sure if there are any earlier examples before Goodwin/Wolfe. Johanna, my comparison to Batman/Oracle was meant to say exactly what you put so much more succinctly than I could. In that relationship, she was the primary, and he was the legman, and DC didn't want that. And rightly so, I think -- although there's no reason to dissolve the partnership completely other than fans asking "why doesn't he just call Oracle?" whenever he needs info. Without trying to account for that possibility, she could just be quietly ignored unless the story genuinely called for her participation and expertise. As for <i>Zero Effect,</i> it's a mystery with Bill Pullman as the quirky and reclusive Darryl Zero -- sort of a proto-Monk who never leaves the house -- and Ben Stiller as his increasing frustrated legman Steve Arlo. It gets by on charm and character more than plot, but it has charm and character to spare, IMO. I’m not sure if there are any earlier examples before Goodwin/Wolfe.

Johanna, my comparison to Batman/Oracle was meant to say exactly what you put so much more succinctly than I could. In that relationship, she was the primary, and he was the legman, and DC didn’t want that.

And rightly so, I think — although there’s no reason to dissolve the partnership completely other than fans asking “why doesn’t he just call Oracle?” whenever he needs info. Without trying to account for that possibility, she could just be quietly ignored unless the story genuinely called for her participation and expertise.

As for Zero Effect, it’s a mystery with Bill Pullman as the quirky and reclusive Darryl Zero — sort of a proto-Monk who never leaves the house — and Ben Stiller as his increasing frustrated legman Steve Arlo. It gets by on charm and character more than plot, but it has charm and character to spare, IMO.

]]> By: Johanna http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/comment-page-1/#comment-30445 Johanna Wed, 12 Jul 2006 00:12:33 +0000 http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/#comment-30445 Was that first done with Archie Goodwin and Nero Wolfe, or were there examples before that? I don't see it as a very accurate comparison to Batman/Oracle, though, because it would put Oracle in the primary position, and that's what DC hates the idea of. I've never heard of Zero Effect before. Was that first done with Archie Goodwin and Nero Wolfe, or were there examples before that?

I don’t see it as a very accurate comparison to Batman/Oracle, though, because it would put Oracle in the primary position, and that’s what DC hates the idea of.

I’ve never heard of Zero Effect before.

]]> By: Marcus http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/comment-page-1/#comment-30441 Marcus Tue, 11 Jul 2006 23:07:56 +0000 http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/#comment-30441 The gist I get from Didio's comments is that Cassandra's sin was that she actually achieved what she sought, more or less. Batgirl's first maxi-arc (or whatever they're called) ended with her basically forgiving herself, which while natural and well told, is kind of the same thing as if Punisher or Bruce Wayne actually grew up and got over the deaths in their origin stories. Apparently we can't have any of actual character growth in comicland. What this hideous travesty in Robin 148-151 has got to do with any of this, I have no idea. The "Batgirl" there was laden with every negative attribute imaginable and was played as a wholly unlikable lunatic with petty and childish motives. Also the fact that she, her father, AND her entire group of ninjas with white contact lenses managed to lose to Robin makes her look like a pathetic wannabe more than anything else. It appears to me that the express purpose of this Robin storyline is simply to make people forget that they ever liked Batgirl. The gist I get from Didio’s comments is that Cassandra’s sin was that she actually achieved what she sought, more or less. Batgirl’s first maxi-arc (or whatever they’re called) ended with her basically forgiving herself, which while natural and well told, is kind of the same thing as if Punisher or Bruce Wayne actually grew up and got over the deaths in their origin stories. Apparently we can’t have any of actual character growth in comicland.

What this hideous travesty in Robin 148-151 has got to do with any of this, I have no idea. The “Batgirl” there was laden with every negative attribute imaginable and was played as a wholly unlikable lunatic with petty and childish motives. Also the fact that she, her father, AND her entire group of ninjas with white contact lenses managed to lose to Robin makes her look like a pathetic wannabe more than anything else.

It appears to me that the express purpose of this Robin storyline is simply to make people forget that they ever liked Batgirl.

]]> By: Rob Staeger http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/comment-page-1/#comment-30438 Rob Staeger Tue, 11 Jul 2006 22:02:39 +0000 http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/#comment-30438 The Oracle/Batman relationship reminds me a lot of the Lincoln Rhyme/Amelia Donaghy dynamic in Jeffrey Deaver's <i>The Bone Collector</i> (or, if you're looking for a better movie, the relationship between Darryl Zero and Steve Arlo in <i>Zero Effect</i>). In all three cases, there's a extremely smart and clever but shut-in (for one reason or another) detective on the end of the line, with a physical operative doing the work and finding the clues. (Heck, it's the Jack Bauer/Chloe dynamic, too.) Problem is, Batman is capable of all the analysis on his own, and I think it's a rare writer who'd be able to make them both appear as competent as they are while working on the same mystery. Oracle can more richly fulfill that role with Black Canary in BOP, and Batman should be the syntheses of the analyst and the feet-on-the-ground guy. Which isn't anything anyone else hasn't said, but I like to plug <i>Zero Effect</i> anytime I can. The Oracle/Batman relationship reminds me a lot of the Lincoln Rhyme/Amelia Donaghy dynamic in Jeffrey Deaver’s The Bone Collector (or, if you’re looking for a better movie, the relationship between Darryl Zero and Steve Arlo in Zero Effect). In all three cases, there’s a extremely smart and clever but shut-in (for one reason or another) detective on the end of the line, with a physical operative doing the work and finding the clues. (Heck, it’s the Jack Bauer/Chloe dynamic, too.) Problem is, Batman is capable of all the analysis on his own, and I think it’s a rare writer who’d be able to make them both appear as competent as they are while working on the same mystery. Oracle can more richly fulfill that role with Black Canary in BOP, and Batman should be the syntheses of the analyst and the feet-on-the-ground guy.

Which isn’t anything anyone else hasn’t said, but I like to plug Zero Effect anytime I can.

]]> By: Lyle http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/comment-page-1/#comment-30391 Lyle Mon, 10 Jul 2006 18:42:44 +0000 http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/#comment-30391 <i>...while Dan Didio was trying to interact with the audience, I couldn't hear their responses and no one on the panel was repeating the questions or comments.</i> I remember the first time I went to San Diego and attended a Vertigo panel run by Stuart Moore. Moore did a great job of running the panel, making sure to repeat every audience question into the microphone. It seemed like such an obvious thing and, yet, the San Diego after Moore left Vertigo I found myself trying to figure out the questions based on the responses. …while Dan Didio was trying to interact with the audience, I couldn’t hear their responses and no one on the panel was repeating the questions or comments.

I remember the first time I went to San Diego and attended a Vertigo panel run by Stuart Moore. Moore did a great job of running the panel, making sure to repeat every audience question into the microphone. It seemed like such an obvious thing and, yet, the San Diego after Moore left Vertigo I found myself trying to figure out the questions based on the responses.

]]> By: Dan Coyle http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/comment-page-1/#comment-30387 Dan Coyle Mon, 10 Jul 2006 17:54:50 +0000 http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/#comment-30387 I always thought it was funny when, on the commentary for <i>Swordfish</i>, director Dominic Sena admitted that Hugh Jackman's character, who is supposedly one of the most skilled hackers in the country, didn't have many scenes in the script of him actually, you know, <i>doing any hacking</i>. So they shot a montage of him playing around with the computer. I always thought it was funny when, on the commentary for Swordfish, director Dominic Sena admitted that Hugh Jackman’s character, who is supposedly one of the most skilled hackers in the country, didn’t have many scenes in the script of him actually, you know, doing any hacking. So they shot a montage of him playing around with the computer.

]]> By: Johanna http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/comment-page-1/#comment-30380 Johanna Mon, 10 Jul 2006 15:00:33 +0000 http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/#comment-30380 I should clarify: I'm jaded about DC superheroes and their universe overall, although Birds of Prey is often a welcome high point. And yes, more Lady Blackhawk would be kewl! Andrew, interesting connection you make there. I tend to agree that hacking is both overvalued (treated like magic) and undervalued in fiction. I should clarify: I’m jaded about DC superheroes and their universe overall, although Birds of Prey is often a welcome high point. And yes, more Lady Blackhawk would be kewl!

Andrew, interesting connection you make there. I tend to agree that hacking is both overvalued (treated like magic) and undervalued in fiction.

]]> By: Andrew Burton http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/comment-page-1/#comment-30376 Andrew Burton Mon, 10 Jul 2006 14:20:35 +0000 http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/#comment-30376 The things I could say about Oracle, omniscience, and DC could fill volumes. The short version, from my perspective, is that part of their "retro fetish" is complete and utter denial of the information age. Being a "h4x0r" is kewl and all, but the subtleties and brain work behind what Oracle does will never appeal to them as much as her for being ability to hit people with a stick. The things I could say about Oracle, omniscience, and DC could fill volumes. The short version, from my perspective, is that part of their “retro fetish” is complete and utter denial of the information age. Being a “h4x0r” is kewl and all, but the subtleties and brain work behind what Oracle does will never appeal to them as much as her for being ability to hit people with a stick.

]]> By: Dan Coyle http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/comment-page-1/#comment-30372 Dan Coyle Mon, 10 Jul 2006 14:05:18 +0000 http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/#comment-30372 Speaking of Lady Blackhawk, Gail, are you going to be working with Eduardo Barreto again anytime soon? Speaking of Lady Blackhawk, Gail, are you going to be working with Eduardo Barreto again anytime soon?

]]> By: Johanna http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/comment-page-1/#comment-30365 Johanna Mon, 10 Jul 2006 11:00:51 +0000 http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/#comment-30365 I'd find the idea that Batman needs to do his own detective work more compelling if he ever did detective work. But that would require writing mysteries instead of dark punch-em-ups. I'm too jaded to participate in this conversation, when everyone else is getting along so well. Thanks, y'all. I’d find the idea that Batman needs to do his own detective work more compelling if he ever did detective work. But that would require writing mysteries instead of dark punch-em-ups.

I’m too jaded to participate in this conversation, when everyone else is getting along so well. Thanks, y’all.

]]> By: Marcus http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/comment-page-1/#comment-30360 Marcus Mon, 10 Jul 2006 10:02:00 +0000 http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/#comment-30360 "What part of Barbara helping Batman out took away his detective work?" The part where Barbara knew everything about everything. Seriously, she's a bit too good at what she does for a team-up with a character who fancies himself a "detective" (even if Batman's brand of detective work seems to consist mostly out of menacing informants). With her around, Bats was at worst reduced to a walking, brooding punchmachine who would call every few minutes to Babs and ask who's the next person he needs to pummel and that sort of thing just isn't okay. Separating Batgirl and Oracle on the other hand, that was a bad move. “What part of Barbara helping Batman out took away his detective work?”

The part where Barbara knew everything about everything. Seriously, she’s a bit too good at what she does for a team-up with a character who fancies himself a “detective” (even if Batman’s brand of detective work seems to consist mostly out of menacing informants). With her around, Bats was at worst reduced to a walking, brooding punchmachine who would call every few minutes to Babs and ask who’s the next person he needs to pummel and that sort of thing just isn’t okay.

Separating Batgirl and Oracle on the other hand, that was a bad move.

]]> By: James Schee http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/comment-page-1/#comment-30358 James Schee Mon, 10 Jul 2006 04:00:31 +0000 http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/#comment-30358 (respond to Johanna's, post not the interesting commentary afterwards) What part of Barbara helping Batman out took away his detective work? The good uses of her, where she'd hunt up where someone lived for Batman or the like seemed logical. Batman still had to do the grunt work of questioning people, and doing lab work and such. Yet Batman not having someone there to do a google search for him seems kind of a waste of his time. (respond to Johanna’s, post not the interesting commentary afterwards)

What part of Barbara helping Batman out took away his detective work? The good uses of her, where she’d hunt up where someone lived for Batman or the like seemed logical. Batman still had to do the grunt work of questioning people, and doing lab work and such. Yet Batman not having someone there to do a google search for him seems kind of a waste of his time.

]]> By: Gail http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/comment-page-1/#comment-30357 Gail Mon, 10 Jul 2006 03:44:30 +0000 http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/#comment-30357 I'm just kidding around, Dan. In a shared universe, stuff happens that you disagree with all the time, and you have the choice of either letting it really bother you, or trying to make an opportunity out of it. And it's true, if the tower hadn't gone, we'd never have gotten the Aerie One, or Lady Blackhawk! Gail I’m just kidding around, Dan. In a shared universe, stuff happens that you disagree with all the time, and you have the choice of either letting it really bother you, or trying to make an opportunity out of it. And it’s true, if the tower hadn’t gone, we’d never have gotten the Aerie One, or Lady Blackhawk!

Gail

]]> By: Dan Coyle http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/comment-page-1/#comment-30355 Dan Coyle Mon, 10 Jul 2006 02:18:56 +0000 http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/#comment-30355 Gail: When I read the <i>Between Dark and Dawn</i> trade, and Oracle's reasons for destroying the tower... um, how did you react when editorial told you that's why she did it? Because that was an... interesting reason. And if Oracle hadn't left Gotham, I wouldn't have discovered how cool Lady Blackhawk is. Gail: When I read the Between Dark and Dawn trade, and Oracle’s reasons for destroying the tower… um, how did you react when editorial told you that’s why she did it? Because that was an… interesting reason.

And if Oracle hadn’t left Gotham, I wouldn’t have discovered how cool Lady Blackhawk is.

]]> By: Sarah http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/comment-page-1/#comment-30352 Sarah Mon, 10 Jul 2006 01:17:13 +0000 http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/#comment-30352 ...what, so making Cass into an *incompetent* dragon lady is taking her back to her past? Technically, she was brought up by Cain to be an assassin; that's her past. But unless I'm mistaken, her actual "comics past"--how readers saw her, how the character concept was *actually developed*--began in the No Man's Land run, when we first met her as someone running *away* from Cain. So it's not as if some nifty initial character concept was frittered away by incompetent writing and now it's being "restored." …what, so making Cass into an *incompetent* dragon lady is taking her back to her past?

Technically, she was brought up by Cain to be an assassin; that’s her past. But unless I’m mistaken, her actual “comics past”–how readers saw her, how the character concept was *actually developed*–began in the No Man’s Land run, when we first met her as someone running *away* from Cain. So it’s not as if some nifty initial character concept was frittered away by incompetent writing and now it’s being “restored.”

]]> By: Gail http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/comment-page-1/#comment-30351 Gail Mon, 10 Jul 2006 00:57:24 +0000 http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/#comment-30351 Yeah. I actually like the Oracle/Batman relationship, but it definitely had become a crutch (not that different from the way Alfred and Robin have been betrayed in the past, but a bit more of an obvious writer's cheat), so I think it was an okay idea to send her mobile. Gail Yeah. I actually like the Oracle/Batman relationship, but it definitely had become a crutch (not that different from the way Alfred and Robin have been betrayed in the past, but a bit more of an obvious writer’s cheat), so I think it was an okay idea to send her mobile.

Gail

]]> By: Ragnell http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/comment-page-1/#comment-30349 Ragnell Mon, 10 Jul 2006 00:29:50 +0000 http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/#comment-30349 Gail -- Promise? When they'd have a huge crossover or a scene in the JLA tower, and Oracle turned out to be coordinatign things, I'd always get so excited -- just to be disappointed when everything she did got attached to Batman's mental prowess. Gail — Promise? When they’d have a huge crossover or a scene in the JLA tower, and Oracle turned out to be coordinatign things, I’d always get so excited — just to be disappointed when everything she did got attached to Batman’s mental prowess.

]]> By: Gail http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/comment-page-1/#comment-30348 Gail Mon, 10 Jul 2006 00:21:04 +0000 http://comicsworthreading.com/2006/07/09/didio-and-the-batgirls/#comment-30348 It was lousy writing that made Oracle a story-destroyer. Some of those guys ought to be ashamed, as they used her as a big cheat. But to be fair, it had been a long time since Batman was really about detecting, in any case. I had no problem with taking her out of Gotham (although destroying the tower was just a dumb, dumb idea), and sending her on her way has made for some fun stories. I think we kicked the Batman-leech element out in the last pre-OYL story. Gail It was lousy writing that made Oracle a story-destroyer. Some of those guys ought to be ashamed, as they used her as a big cheat. But to be fair, it had been a long time since Batman was really about detecting, in any case.

I had no problem with taking her out of Gotham (although destroying the tower was just a dumb, dumb idea), and sending her on her way has made for some fun stories.

I think we kicked the Batman-leech element out in the last pre-OYL story.

Gail

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