[...] Women’s Pop Culture Magazine” on the cover, in contrast to Wizard aiming only at men (a not surprising choice, given Wizard’s [...]

Libraries are more likely to carry manga than US superhero comics, because while manga certainly has plenty of sexually explicit material to appeal to arrested male adolescents of all stripes, it also has a lot of female-oriented and all-ages content as well (something US superhero comics are notably deficient in). Manga’s also more likely to reach us collected in paperback form already, rather than in individual issues that will be gone from shelves in a few weeks.

His point is that no librarian (except maybe Laura Bush) is going to demand the comics industry censor itself – but they’re also more likely to carry manga and mainstream publishing’s “library editions” of educational and alternative comics than US superhero comics in their libraries. Superhero comics would be available more frequently in libraries if there was, among other things, more diversity in the types of women and treatment of women in them….

Best,
Tim Liebe
Dreaded Spouse-Creature of Tamora Pierce
- and co-writer of Marvel’s upcoming White Tiger comic

I’m a 21 male comic reader who happens to like superhero books. I’m a consistent X-Men reader and (perhaps because I’m gay) have been oblivious to all the valid points the commenters have made. The depiction of women in superhero books has never “titilated” me and that’s probably why I would have scoffed at anyone who accused a book like X-Men of being sexist- there are a lot of strong female characters presented (which is one of the reasons why I dig it) but they are presented visually as being in a constant state of seduction.

I thought I was completely blameless in this situation, but it seems now that I might be more at fault than heterosexual male readers in that I should recognize this objectification as so many female readers already have. The fact that it’s never bothered me until now truthfully makes me disappointed in myself.

But then again, I really like superhero books, but if I continue to read them it feels as if I’m only further contributing to something that is clearly offensive to a large percentage of women.

I think that’s where we disagree on this part of the issue. While I think there’s definitely an audience for superhero comics that are more T&A than superhero drama, I think that’s still a niche audience and that other longtime superhero fans are starting to feel alienated by this …so I guess I feel like letting the T&A art creep into their mainstream lines DC and Marvel are getting more specialized and becoming more of a niche instead of expanding, that the major publishers are on a downwards spiral based on what gets the biggest sales jump in the shortest amount of time while missing the long term trends.

That brings to mind Wonder Woman. I’ve got friends who love her as an icon and buy Wonder Woman merchandise but I would never try to get them to read comics by handing them an issue of Wonder Woman from the past decade. (I do find it telling that the Wonder Woman merchandise I see outside of the direct market mostly uses art from before the 90’s.)

Of course, it’s very likely the circles I’ve decided to participate encourage that perception. I enjoy talking comics with like minded people, so there’s definitely an echo chamber effect. There’s still the feeling that the big two are making a mistake in letting most of the people I talk about comics feel fine walking away from them.

I don’t think DCU and Marvel need to change, but to expand. Instead of putting out mostly the same kinds of stories and art and titles, allow more variety and support more audiences.

Johanna – I may be wrong, but I didn’t read this as a response to your arguments. I read as a comment about some of the arguments she’s encountered elsewhere.

You seem to be arguing that it doesn’t make financial sense for the publishing companies to risk a loyal audience for an uncertain one. And you’re absolutely right. The thing is, that’s why vocal critiques are so important – without public pressure, institutions don’t have much reason to change. And I think in this case they need to change – for everyone’s sake.

R — I don’t think anyone was offended, but just wanted to clarify their points. Hopefully, we’re seeking greater understanding here. And if you liked old X-Factor, you likely want to look for the upcoming issue #13 of the current series, which is going to be an homage to the old issue where PAD sent the team to therapy.

I often wonder if the people who argue that less sexism would mean less male readership realize what they are suggesting: that men won’t buy things unless they denigrate half the population of the earth. What a vile thing to suggest.

I’ve seen the question asked (usually in the guise of “Why do women like manga if its got panty shots, too?”), I think the key difference is that you can still find fanservice-free manga in a variety of genres, but in American comics it’s pretty much impossible to follow a character and avoid it (which is partly due to superheroes being licenses, while manga is more creator focused… no Sailor Moon fan has to worry about Jim Balent taking over the art).

Tho, unnecesssary panty shots can easliy chase me away from a title. I never sampled a full Kindaichi Case Files because of a panty-shot in the preview story and that killed my enthusiasm for Sgt Frog. In both cases it really cut my enjoyment that the characters looked very young.

OTOH, in Tuxedo Gin the fanservice didn’t bother me because TG was a very raunchy comedy, so it all felt apt to the series while I thought they felt forced in KCF and SF… which is my problem when it shows up in superhero comics, too.

Also, your point that we really aren’t discussing romantic *comedy* for boys is well taken. It’s not really the same thing – we have things that are situational comedy centered around a romance storyline (Megatokyo, but that’s OEL), or things that are adventure comedy with plot twists that require romance to be plausible (Girl Genius, but that’s not a superhero comic), but none of those things are romance comics for boys.

Paul: point taken. Like I said, I can’t even think of examples from western novels, let alone comics that qualify as romance for boys. I only brought OMG in to point out that a market undoubtedly exists for such things.

I feel a little out of my depth – I did not intend to offend.
-r.

*No joke, real stories. The Mightiest Team in the World, 1952 and Black Magic on Mars, 1949. Reprinted in”Superman from the Thirties to the Seventies, ed. E. Nelson Bridwell, ISBN: 0517190338, though I couldn’t figure out which issues they came from. I also long for the return of some of the other ages of comics as well, from X-Factor when it was a sitcom with Ren and Stimpy jokes, to Superman as a serious minded pro-labor, anti-capital punishment freelance do-gooder in the swinging 30’s. And oh, yeah, some of what Byrne did on FF4.)

Yes, the Balent Boobs and Turner Spine are painful. But then, anyone who has ever had to stand up knows this at first sight.

The less-exaggerated arch, the garceful curves produce a bit of a frisson with male characters. But equal to the gender ambiguity, it’s because Batman or the Punisher look *relaxed* – and that’s not right! (Further analysis, that female sexuality is inherently passive, yeah, more than a little creepy.)

But then we got to the action shots, with the pointed hands and the water, and I realized where I had seen all of this before: Manga. And I also realized that my problem with Naruto et al isn’t that it is aping long standing “superpower” conventions, yet being called original because it is “martial arts”. (Well, not entirely…) It’s the little boys and effeminate men beating the crap out of each other. So much less psychologically damaging that sexless steroiud cases beating each other…

Absolutely, Manga gets props for diversity. I mean, it actually has straight Romance titles. (Some of them even Straight Romance.) And everything from Tennis to Noodles. But while Manga is “more normal”, when it gets more deviant, it gets more deviant.

Yes, we should all disrespect Balent, Turner, and any other artist who doesn’t know anatomy. And we should ask for Editors who trust the interior of a book enough not to try and sell it with pin-up covers. But where’s the hue and cry against fan-service panty shots, tentacle porn, and “Rape Man”? (Outside of “Law & Order” pandering, I mean.)

I have a copy of HMD sitting on my review stack. I’ll have to take a look to see what I think. You’re very right about “pure” romances being difficult to find, because very often it’s a part of another genre.

And yes, by format I meant reasonably-priced books. I have tens of thousands of traditional comics, and most of the time, they’re a huge pain to store, search, and reread. But my books! Joy!

My Platonic model for harem manga is Love Hina, where it’s also obvious from the beginning what the pairing will be, so that’s not a relevant factor in my evaluation of the genre.

And please note, we were talking about romance *comics* for boys, not romantic *comedy* for boys; they’re two separate things.

I think Oh My Goddess is manga

Wait, because it’s Japanese, it doesn’t count?

and a harem manga at that

On the surface, sure: Ordinary guy lives with a bunch of beautiful women. Where Oh My Goddess breaks from the harem manga model is the fact that the pairing is established from the first issue. There’s no question of who the guy will end up with, and the rest of the women aren’t fighting over him, just crowding the couple so that the book can keep the relationship developing as slowly as possible.

So I agree with rhandir: the “romantic comedy for men” description fits.

Funny story: I remember reading some comment where someone connected with Dark Horse was trying to explain, “No, it’s not just for girls. Look at the racing stories. And remember, it first appeared in XYZ, a shonen anthology!”

Personally, I agree with you about enjoying the pure heroism of manga more than superhero comics these days, but the format there is also a huge plus for me.
By format, you mean tankubon size + pagecount instead of the larger floppy, short American style comics? I’m on board with that! (I hate those plastic sleeves and backing boards.)
I unabashedly love the heroism in shonen manga. I’ve read comics for years, and I couldn’t put my finger on what changed in superhero comics, exactly, until this discussion. It seems like we went from questioning the notion of heroism (e.g. Alan Moore, Frank Miller) in an interesting, but very dark way, to heroism being displaced as an organizing principle for telling stories.
-r.

*I can’t think of a single example of western literature that is effectively romance in type, but is strongly appealling to men as a romance. Barbara Hambly’s fantasy novels always include neat romantic relationships between main characters, (Darwath Trilogy, Bride of the Rat God, etc.) but that’s not precisely the same thing. I suppose Anne McCaffery’s The White Dragon might fit the definition.

R, I think Oh My Goddess is manga, and a harem manga at that, so that’s another example of a comic aimed at the male audience. (Better examples of romance comics aimed at men, in my opinion, are Beg the Question or True Story Swear to God, although that latter has had a lot of crossover success as well.)

Personally, I agree with you about enjoying the pure heroism of manga more than superhero comics these days, but the format there is also a huge plus for me.