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	<title>Comments on: Publishers Respond to Con Sales Debate</title>
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	<link>http://comicsworthreading.com/2008/01/21/publishers-respond-to-con-sales-debate/</link>
	<description>Independent Opinions on Comics of All Kinds</description>
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		<title>By: Johanna</title>
		<link>http://comicsworthreading.com/2008/01/21/publishers-respond-to-con-sales-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-84085</link>
		<dc:creator>Johanna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2008 00:03:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://comicsworthreading.com/2008/01/21/publishers-respond-to-con-sales-debate/#comment-84085</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m looking forward to seeing future position papers, myself. If nothing else, it&#039;s interesting to see what issues they feel are worth addressing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m looking forward to seeing future position papers, myself. If nothing else, it&#8217;s interesting to see what issues they feel are worth addressing.</p>
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		<title>By: Randy Lander</title>
		<link>http://comicsworthreading.com/2008/01/21/publishers-respond-to-con-sales-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-84077</link>
		<dc:creator>Randy Lander</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:37:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://comicsworthreading.com/2008/01/21/publishers-respond-to-con-sales-debate/#comment-84077</guid>
		<description>Wow. Deppey compares retailers to abused (and abusive) children, Doane basically calls the direct market as a whole a dinosaur and ComicsPro takes a stand on a remarkably minor issue instead of trying to fix some of the real problems, and does its best to make the retailing community *look* like the dinosaur it is often made out to be. Three possible responses from me:

1. Ah, must be Tuesday on the Internet.

2. Wow, there&#039;s nobody in this argument I can agree with.

3. I wonder if ComicsPro will ever write a position paper I support?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow. Deppey compares retailers to abused (and abusive) children, Doane basically calls the direct market as a whole a dinosaur and ComicsPro takes a stand on a remarkably minor issue instead of trying to fix some of the real problems, and does its best to make the retailing community *look* like the dinosaur it is often made out to be. Three possible responses from me:</p>
<p>1. Ah, must be Tuesday on the Internet.</p>
<p>2. Wow, there&#8217;s nobody in this argument I can agree with.</p>
<p>3. I wonder if ComicsPro will ever write a position paper I support?</p>
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		<title>By: Journalista - the news weblog of The Comics Journal &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Jan. 22, 2008: You&#8217;re aiming for readers</title>
		<link>http://comicsworthreading.com/2008/01/21/publishers-respond-to-con-sales-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-84017</link>
		<dc:creator>Journalista - the news weblog of The Comics Journal &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Jan. 22, 2008: You&#8217;re aiming for readers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:33:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://comicsworthreading.com/2008/01/21/publishers-respond-to-con-sales-debate/#comment-84017</guid>
		<description>[...] Direct Market, part III: Here&#8217;s Brian Hibbs, Lisa Lopacinski, Heidi MacDonald, Simon Jones, Johanna Draper Carlson, Alan David Doane and Richard [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div style="padding: 1em; background-color: #FEF1B5;">
<p>[...] Direct Market, part III: Here&#8217;s Brian Hibbs, Lisa Lopacinski, Heidi MacDonald, Simon Jones, Johanna Draper Carlson, Alan David Doane and Richard [...]</p>
</div>
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		<title>By: Simon Jones</title>
		<link>http://comicsworthreading.com/2008/01/21/publishers-respond-to-con-sales-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-83968</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 22:04:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://comicsworthreading.com/2008/01/21/publishers-respond-to-con-sales-debate/#comment-83968</guid>
		<description>Joshua--&gt;

I wasn&#039;t actually arguing with the point you were making, merely offering another way of defining who actually gets the largest slice of the pie.

I&#039;ve long since moved past arguing on the basis of fairness, compassion, or charity at all in comics.  Ironically, it&#039;s retailers who convinced me that idealism doesn&#039;t matter in the face of actual market conditions and the all important dollar, however I wish it were not the case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joshua&#8211;&gt;</p>
<p>I wasn&#8217;t actually arguing with the point you were making, merely offering another way of defining who actually gets the largest slice of the pie.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve long since moved past arguing on the basis of fairness, compassion, or charity at all in comics.  Ironically, it&#8217;s retailers who convinced me that idealism doesn&#8217;t matter in the face of actual market conditions and the all important dollar, however I wish it were not the case.</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua</title>
		<link>http://comicsworthreading.com/2008/01/21/publishers-respond-to-con-sales-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-83962</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 21:12:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://comicsworthreading.com/2008/01/21/publishers-respond-to-con-sales-debate/#comment-83962</guid>
		<description>Simon,

 Why?  I mean, you can always choose some measure or tell some story about why the amount you&#039;re getting is fair, or should be even higher, but honestly, why is it manifestly more fair that e.g. retailers can make a living at it while many on the art and writing side have to have day jobs to support themselves? If margins ought to matter, should retailers be willing to take a smaller discount from publishers who offer a better page rate or a higher ratio of staff to freelancers? 

The point isn&#039;t that retailers have it easy, since as Larry points out everybody works for their small margins, but that talk about &quot;fairness&quot; in business transactions mostly comes down to being able to spin a good yarn to justify your self-interest. I&#039;m much more likely to believe that fairness is a motive when you&#039;re offering *better* terms to your trading partners than they would have agreed to.  Otherwise, the acid test is just this: would you rather have the deal on the terms offered, or not? Is there a deal that both parties would prefer to the current one?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Simon,</p>
<p> Why?  I mean, you can always choose some measure or tell some story about why the amount you&#8217;re getting is fair, or should be even higher, but honestly, why is it manifestly more fair that e.g. retailers can make a living at it while many on the art and writing side have to have day jobs to support themselves? If margins ought to matter, should retailers be willing to take a smaller discount from publishers who offer a better page rate or a higher ratio of staff to freelancers? </p>
<p>The point isn&#8217;t that retailers have it easy, since as Larry points out everybody works for their small margins, but that talk about &#8220;fairness&#8221; in business transactions mostly comes down to being able to spin a good yarn to justify your self-interest. I&#8217;m much more likely to believe that fairness is a motive when you&#8217;re offering *better* terms to your trading partners than they would have agreed to.  Otherwise, the acid test is just this: would you rather have the deal on the terms offered, or not? Is there a deal that both parties would prefer to the current one?</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Jones</title>
		<link>http://comicsworthreading.com/2008/01/21/publishers-respond-to-con-sales-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-83954</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:33:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://comicsworthreading.com/2008/01/21/publishers-respond-to-con-sales-debate/#comment-83954</guid>
		<description>Joshua--&gt;
Rather than simply breaking down the price that way, you should also consider the profit margins.  Publishers pay for a hefty amount for production.  Most of the retailer&#039;s take goes towards overhead like rent or shipping.  The party actually taking in the lion&#039;s share is... heh, I&#039;m sure you can figure out where I&#039;m going with this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joshua&#8211;&gt;<br />
Rather than simply breaking down the price that way, you should also consider the profit margins.  Publishers pay for a hefty amount for production.  Most of the retailer&#8217;s take goes towards overhead like rent or shipping.  The party actually taking in the lion&#8217;s share is&#8230; heh, I&#8217;m sure you can figure out where I&#8217;m going with this.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Young</title>
		<link>http://comicsworthreading.com/2008/01/21/publishers-respond-to-con-sales-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-83946</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Young</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:07:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://comicsworthreading.com/2008/01/21/publishers-respond-to-con-sales-debate/#comment-83946</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s my understanding that it&#039;s &quot;a disproportionately large segment of the whole,&quot; which makes your point read separate from what you intended.

But I don&#039;t mean to be pedantic; just pointing out that retailers aren&#039;t getting a disproportionate amount of the cover price. If you only mean they&#039;re getting the largest slice, that&#039;s cool.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s my understanding that it&#8217;s &#8220;a disproportionately large segment of the whole,&#8221; which makes your point read separate from what you intended.</p>
<p>But I don&#8217;t mean to be pedantic; just pointing out that retailers aren&#8217;t getting a disproportionate amount of the cover price. If you only mean they&#8217;re getting the largest slice, that&#8217;s cool.</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua</title>
		<link>http://comicsworthreading.com/2008/01/21/publishers-respond-to-con-sales-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-83945</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:02:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://comicsworthreading.com/2008/01/21/publishers-respond-to-con-sales-debate/#comment-83945</guid>
		<description>The &quot;lion&#039;s share&quot; just means the largest of two or more amounts, which is precisely what your example shows.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8220;lion&#8217;s share&#8221; just means the largest of two or more amounts, which is precisely what your example shows.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Young</title>
		<link>http://comicsworthreading.com/2008/01/21/publishers-respond-to-con-sales-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-83942</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Young</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:51:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://comicsworthreading.com/2008/01/21/publishers-respond-to-con-sales-debate/#comment-83942</guid>
		<description>A $12.95 graphic novel for a company with an F discount and the 3% reorder penalty takes in $5.44 for the retailer, $5.18 for the publisher and $2.33 for Diamond. Not exactly the lion&#039;s share for the retailer. :)

EVERYONE works hard for their small margin, in comics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A $12.95 graphic novel for a company with an F discount and the 3% reorder penalty takes in $5.44 for the retailer, $5.18 for the publisher and $2.33 for Diamond. Not exactly the lion&#8217;s share for the retailer. :)</p>
<p>EVERYONE works hard for their small margin, in comics.</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua</title>
		<link>http://comicsworthreading.com/2008/01/21/publishers-respond-to-con-sales-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-83940</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:38:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://comicsworthreading.com/2008/01/21/publishers-respond-to-con-sales-debate/#comment-83940</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s my take on it (note that I don&#039;t go to conventions any more, and barely buy anything except manga, which I still buy from my LCS even though I could get it cheaper and more conveniently elsewhere, so I&#039;m not just rationalizing my preferences):

The plural of anecdote isn&#039;t data.  Some retailers claim that publishers are leaving money on the table by selling at conventions in advance of availability to the shops. (This is separate from the claim that the publishers are making money that rightfully belongs to the retailers.)  It&#039;s hard to assess counterfactuals, but since the practice has gone on for years and retailers have been complaining for years, this amounts to claiming that publishers are just too dumb to recognize their own interests even when it&#039;s pointed out to them.  You&#039;d think that they would notice the better total sales on titles that they never did this with, but maybe each individual publisher is working from too small a sample, or doesn&#039;t keep careful enough track of their sales, or retailers respond by cutting all orders from the publisher and not just ones that they&#039;re afraid will be on sale early at cons so the publisher can&#039;t tell the difference between the general sales trend and the activity on that particular title.  It&#039;s a hard sell, though, to persuade your supplier that you know his business enough better than him that he should take your word that he&#039;ll make out better by giving you more favorable terms.

On the other hand, you&#039;ve got the publishers saying that these sales are important part of marketing and generating buzz.  And again, while there&#039;s a plausible story to explain why it would be good for everybody, without data publishers are just asserting they know the business better than retailers.  Obviously another tough sell there.

I think if publishers and retailers wanted to get past the clash of dueling assumptions, they&#039;d have to carefully track and share data about sales on titles where they did or didn&#039;t offer them early at cons, and perhaps even experiment with offering at some cons and not others to see how regional sales went (though I can imagine that would be difficult if there aren&#039;t near-simultaneous cons in different regions prior to when the book hits the direct market).

As to fairness, like Johanna, I tend to see that as something of a red-herring.  Last I checked retailers get the lion&#039;s share of the cover price of the books they sell. Is that fair?  Who knows?  It is, however, what the publisher has to agree to in order to get the books in the shops.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s my take on it (note that I don&#8217;t go to conventions any more, and barely buy anything except manga, which I still buy from my LCS even though I could get it cheaper and more conveniently elsewhere, so I&#8217;m not just rationalizing my preferences):</p>
<p>The plural of anecdote isn&#8217;t data.  Some retailers claim that publishers are leaving money on the table by selling at conventions in advance of availability to the shops. (This is separate from the claim that the publishers are making money that rightfully belongs to the retailers.)  It&#8217;s hard to assess counterfactuals, but since the practice has gone on for years and retailers have been complaining for years, this amounts to claiming that publishers are just too dumb to recognize their own interests even when it&#8217;s pointed out to them.  You&#8217;d think that they would notice the better total sales on titles that they never did this with, but maybe each individual publisher is working from too small a sample, or doesn&#8217;t keep careful enough track of their sales, or retailers respond by cutting all orders from the publisher and not just ones that they&#8217;re afraid will be on sale early at cons so the publisher can&#8217;t tell the difference between the general sales trend and the activity on that particular title.  It&#8217;s a hard sell, though, to persuade your supplier that you know his business enough better than him that he should take your word that he&#8217;ll make out better by giving you more favorable terms.</p>
<p>On the other hand, you&#8217;ve got the publishers saying that these sales are important part of marketing and generating buzz.  And again, while there&#8217;s a plausible story to explain why it would be good for everybody, without data publishers are just asserting they know the business better than retailers.  Obviously another tough sell there.</p>
<p>I think if publishers and retailers wanted to get past the clash of dueling assumptions, they&#8217;d have to carefully track and share data about sales on titles where they did or didn&#8217;t offer them early at cons, and perhaps even experiment with offering at some cons and not others to see how regional sales went (though I can imagine that would be difficult if there aren&#8217;t near-simultaneous cons in different regions prior to when the book hits the direct market).</p>
<p>As to fairness, like Johanna, I tend to see that as something of a red-herring.  Last I checked retailers get the lion&#8217;s share of the cover price of the books they sell. Is that fair?  Who knows?  It is, however, what the publisher has to agree to in order to get the books in the shops.</p>
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