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	<title>Comments on: What Makes a Jungle Girl Different? More on Savage Beauty</title>
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	<description>Independent Opinions on Comics of All Kinds</description>
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		<title>By: Savage Beauty: Pretty Much What Was Expected &#187; Comics Worth Reading</title>
		<link>http://comicsworthreading.com/2010/08/03/what-makes-a-jungle-girl-different-more-on-savage-beauty/comment-page-1/#comment-117879</link>
		<dc:creator>Savage Beauty: Pretty Much What Was Expected &#187; Comics Worth Reading</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Feb 2011 20:15:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://comicsworthreading.com/?p=13856#comment-117879</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] had a chance to read an advance online copy of Moonstone&#8217;s Savage Beauty, a &#8220;jungle girl&#8221; comic that&#8217;s gotten some discussion about its use of what some perceive as racial stereotypes. The [...]]]></description>
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<p>[...] had a chance to read an advance online copy of Moonstone&#8217;s Savage Beauty, a &#8220;jungle girl&#8221; comic that&#8217;s gotten some discussion about its use of what some perceive as racial stereotypes. The [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Bullock</title>
		<link>http://comicsworthreading.com/2010/08/03/what-makes-a-jungle-girl-different-more-on-savage-beauty/comment-page-1/#comment-117819</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Bullock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Feb 2011 01:06:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://comicsworthreading.com/?p=13856#comment-117819</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi How About,
Thanks for contributing your opinions to the conversation. For clarity’s sake and to hopefully dispel the seemingly self perpetuating falsehoods about what this book is and isn’t that seem localized in this discussion, I’d like to take a moment and fill you in on the initial arc. 

The story is set in motion by a Ugandan warlord named Lumus Okoye who uses child soldiers to control his “business” of gun running, drugs and human trafficking. While I obviously know that not all Ugandans are evil warlords, one of the most infamous warlords on Earth right now happens to be operating in Uganda and the DR Congo. Since I personally hate Kony and would love nothing more than to see him imprisoned for life, this is my little way of hoping to only offend a jerk who needs to be offended, namely him. 

Our protagonists, two half sisters named Lacy and Liv, under their guise of American journalists, act on behalf of a mysterious benefactor named Mr. Eden (an extremely wealthy Ethiopian entrepreneur), in an attempt to bring this warlord’s operations to an end and free the women he intends to sell into sex-slavery. 

The heroines are half-sisters by adoption, one a Kenyan girl, orphaned early in life; the other a Californian whose parents have always tried to use their resources to help the less fortunate and by their actions, instilled this ideal in their daughters.
 
Mr. Eden, as we’ll later learn, is part of a mysterious organization that uses many myths and legends to enact justice while shielding their own personal business interests from their passions: ending strife in Africa and empowering it’s people to live life as they so choose without the influence of foreigners, warlords, corrupt governments or other unsavory things that seem to rise up no matter where humans go. In the case of Liv and Lacy, Eden has placed them inside the mythos of Anaya, a Goddess known for her ample blessings on the innocent and harsh justice on the guilty. 

To touch on your other comments quickly, the title of the book isn’t a descriptor of any certain peoples, places, races or anything else. It’s an illustration of the juxtaposition of a goddess who is at once beautiful to those she loves and savage to those who anger her. However, “Beauty Savage” just doesn’t roll off the tongue quite right...

As for the outfits, it’s a bit absurd to think they actually skinned cheetahs and put their flesh on, especially in a day &amp; age where the invention of lycra screen printed fabrics is decades old. They&#039;re smart women that realize egotistical men don’t always think straight when confronted with powerful, attractive females… and these ladies aren’t too proud to take advantage of that fact. Psychology is a weapon they willingly wield. 

And, lastly, to the sexist/racist comments. The four main protagonists of the story are two women and two men, one each from California and Northern Africa. The villains, for the first arc at least, are a Frenchman, a Ugandan man and his female lieutenant. The only people cast in a bad light are the villains, because, well quite frankly villains should be cast in a bad light. 

Thanks again for keeping the discussion alive.

For anyone interested the advance reviews are rolling in and quite frankly the critics are loving the first issue.

http://allpulp.blogspot.com/2011/01/reviews-from-86th-floor-barry-reese.html

This one contains spoilers, so you&#039;ve been warned: http://playeraffinity.com/comic-reviews/Savage-Beauty-1-Review.html

http://thepullbox.com/2011/02/01/savage-beauty-1-a-great-pulp-adventure-in-a-leopard-print-bikini-to-boot/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi How About,<br />
Thanks for contributing your opinions to the conversation. For clarity’s sake and to hopefully dispel the seemingly self perpetuating falsehoods about what this book is and isn’t that seem localized in this discussion, I’d like to take a moment and fill you in on the initial arc. </p>
<p>The story is set in motion by a Ugandan warlord named Lumus Okoye who uses child soldiers to control his “business” of gun running, drugs and human trafficking. While I obviously know that not all Ugandans are evil warlords, one of the most infamous warlords on Earth right now happens to be operating in Uganda and the DR Congo. Since I personally hate Kony and would love nothing more than to see him imprisoned for life, this is my little way of hoping to only offend a jerk who needs to be offended, namely him. </p>
<p>Our protagonists, two half sisters named Lacy and Liv, under their guise of American journalists, act on behalf of a mysterious benefactor named Mr. Eden (an extremely wealthy Ethiopian entrepreneur), in an attempt to bring this warlord’s operations to an end and free the women he intends to sell into sex-slavery. </p>
<p>The heroines are half-sisters by adoption, one a Kenyan girl, orphaned early in life; the other a Californian whose parents have always tried to use their resources to help the less fortunate and by their actions, instilled this ideal in their daughters.</p>
<p>Mr. Eden, as we’ll later learn, is part of a mysterious organization that uses many myths and legends to enact justice while shielding their own personal business interests from their passions: ending strife in Africa and empowering it’s people to live life as they so choose without the influence of foreigners, warlords, corrupt governments or other unsavory things that seem to rise up no matter where humans go. In the case of Liv and Lacy, Eden has placed them inside the mythos of Anaya, a Goddess known for her ample blessings on the innocent and harsh justice on the guilty. </p>
<p>To touch on your other comments quickly, the title of the book isn’t a descriptor of any certain peoples, places, races or anything else. It’s an illustration of the juxtaposition of a goddess who is at once beautiful to those she loves and savage to those who anger her. However, “Beauty Savage” just doesn’t roll off the tongue quite right&#8230;</p>
<p>As for the outfits, it’s a bit absurd to think they actually skinned cheetahs and put their flesh on, especially in a day &amp; age where the invention of lycra screen printed fabrics is decades old. They&#8217;re smart women that realize egotistical men don’t always think straight when confronted with powerful, attractive females… and these ladies aren’t too proud to take advantage of that fact. Psychology is a weapon they willingly wield. </p>
<p>And, lastly, to the sexist/racist comments. The four main protagonists of the story are two women and two men, one each from California and Northern Africa. The villains, for the first arc at least, are a Frenchman, a Ugandan man and his female lieutenant. The only people cast in a bad light are the villains, because, well quite frankly villains should be cast in a bad light. </p>
<p>Thanks again for keeping the discussion alive.</p>
<p>For anyone interested the advance reviews are rolling in and quite frankly the critics are loving the first issue.</p>
<p><a href="http://allpulp.blogspot.com/2011/01/reviews-from-86th-floor-barry-reese.html" rel="nofollow">http://allpulp.blogspot.com/2011/01/reviews-from-86th-floor-barry-reese.html</a></p>
<p>This one contains spoilers, so you&#8217;ve been warned: <a href="http://playeraffinity.com/comic-reviews/Savage-Beauty-1-Review.html" rel="nofollow">http://playeraffinity.com/comic-reviews/Savage-Beauty-1-Review.html</a></p>
<p><a href="http://thepullbox.com/2011/02/01/savage-beauty-1-a-great-pulp-adventure-in-a-leopard-print-bikini-to-boot/" rel="nofollow">http://thepullbox.com/2011/02/01/savage-beauty-1-a-great-pulp-adventure-in-a-leopard-print-bikini-to-boot/</a></p>
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		<title>By: How about..</title>
		<link>http://comicsworthreading.com/2010/08/03/what-makes-a-jungle-girl-different-more-on-savage-beauty/comment-page-1/#comment-117817</link>
		<dc:creator>How about..</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Feb 2011 21:53:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://comicsworthreading.com/?p=13856#comment-117817</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[ALSO, FYI, A21 turned down the offer..for a good reason. Or did the comic creator not get that message, as loud and clear as it was?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ALSO, FYI, A21 turned down the offer..for a good reason. Or did the comic creator not get that message, as loud and clear as it was?</p>
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		<title>By: How about..</title>
		<link>http://comicsworthreading.com/2010/08/03/what-makes-a-jungle-girl-different-more-on-savage-beauty/comment-page-1/#comment-117816</link>
		<dc:creator>How about..</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Feb 2011 21:27:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://comicsworthreading.com/?p=13856#comment-117816</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You don&#039;t use the title &quot;Savage Beauty&quot;. I mean, REALLY? You couldn&#039;t call it something less.. I don&#039;t know.. racist? Why do they have to be SAVAGE? Because they&#039;re from a jungle? This just perpetuates that hundreds of thousands of civilizations that decided not to have paved roads destroying natural beauty are somehow uncivilized. Hello, ancient europeans lived the same way for a very long time. Very, very white stance here.

And why on DEAR GOD&#039;S GREEN EARTH ARE THEY WEARING ANIMAL-SKIN BIKINIS? Because that is EXACTLY what I, as a WOMAN, would want to run around in while fighting off BAD GUYS, right? Drop the stupid female fantasy get-up already. If it&#039;s supposed to be REAL-WORLD, then have them wear REAL CLOTHES. If they&#039;re supposed to be SMART WOMEN, they&#039;ll wear camo that allows them to blend in and move freely.



Just another massive heap of stinking garbage. Well-meaning my butt. More like bottom line..Guys will buy it for the covers, and all females will steer far, far away from it.

Listen to SAW and Jane. Honestly, it would shock me if A21 stays with this comic; they seem much smarter than to portray themselves, or the young women they rescue, as stereotype-and-sexism-lovers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You don&#8217;t use the title &#8220;Savage Beauty&#8221;. I mean, REALLY? You couldn&#8217;t call it something less.. I don&#8217;t know.. racist? Why do they have to be SAVAGE? Because they&#8217;re from a jungle? This just perpetuates that hundreds of thousands of civilizations that decided not to have paved roads destroying natural beauty are somehow uncivilized. Hello, ancient europeans lived the same way for a very long time. Very, very white stance here.</p>
<p>And why on DEAR GOD&#8217;S GREEN EARTH ARE THEY WEARING ANIMAL-SKIN BIKINIS? Because that is EXACTLY what I, as a WOMAN, would want to run around in while fighting off BAD GUYS, right? Drop the stupid female fantasy get-up already. If it&#8217;s supposed to be REAL-WORLD, then have them wear REAL CLOTHES. If they&#8217;re supposed to be SMART WOMEN, they&#8217;ll wear camo that allows them to blend in and move freely.</p>
<p>Just another massive heap of stinking garbage. Well-meaning my butt. More like bottom line..Guys will buy it for the covers, and all females will steer far, far away from it.</p>
<p>Listen to SAW and Jane. Honestly, it would shock me if A21 stays with this comic; they seem much smarter than to portray themselves, or the young women they rescue, as stereotype-and-sexism-lovers.</p>
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		<title>By: Savage Beauty Bumping Pre-Orders With Contest &#187; Comics Worth Reading</title>
		<link>http://comicsworthreading.com/2010/08/03/what-makes-a-jungle-girl-different-more-on-savage-beauty/comment-page-1/#comment-116749</link>
		<dc:creator>Savage Beauty Bumping Pre-Orders With Contest &#187; Comics Worth Reading</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Dec 2010 18:37:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://comicsworthreading.com/?p=13856#comment-116749</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Savage Beauty, the revamped jungle girl title from Moonstone that&#8217;s already caused some consternation over its cheesecake and racial politics, has announced a contest. One winner, after providing a high-quality reference photograph, will be drawn into the third issue of Savage Beauty as well as receiving signed copies of the first issue and a numbered print autographed by writer and co-creator Mike Bullock. Ten additional winners wil get the signed items. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div style="padding: 1em; background-color: #FEF1B5;">
<p>[...] Savage Beauty, the revamped jungle girl title from Moonstone that&#8217;s already caused some consternation over its cheesecake and racial politics, has announced a contest. One winner, after providing a high-quality reference photograph, will be drawn into the third issue of Savage Beauty as well as receiving signed copies of the first issue and a numbered print autographed by writer and co-creator Mike Bullock. Ten additional winners wil get the signed items. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Catto</title>
		<link>http://comicsworthreading.com/2010/08/03/what-makes-a-jungle-girl-different-more-on-savage-beauty/comment-page-1/#comment-116001</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Catto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Nov 2010 11:50:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://comicsworthreading.com/?p=13856#comment-116001</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As noted, the Savage Beauty comic will be donating free ad pages to organizations like Invisible Children, Black Girls Rock!, Oxfam, Do Good Day, Just a Drop and the A21 Initiative. The idea is to give these worthy causes another platform to get their word out. Here&#039;s some recent press:    http://tinyurl.com/264lsxx]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As noted, the Savage Beauty comic will be donating free ad pages to organizations like Invisible Children, Black Girls Rock!, Oxfam, Do Good Day, Just a Drop and the A21 Initiative. The idea is to give these worthy causes another platform to get their word out. Here&#8217;s some recent press:    <a href="http://tinyurl.com/264lsxx" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/264lsxx</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jane Irwin</title>
		<link>http://comicsworthreading.com/2010/08/03/what-makes-a-jungle-girl-different-more-on-savage-beauty/comment-page-1/#comment-114943</link>
		<dc:creator>Jane Irwin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Sep 2010 17:52:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://comicsworthreading.com/?p=13856#comment-114943</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I realize that this is way late, and reviving a dead thread (life&#039;s been a whirlwind lately), but I just need to comment for the record that I, too, support Seeking Avalon&#039;s Willow in her concerns about this project.  SAW&#039;s never said that &quot;white people can’t write about or be concerned about African problems&quot; -- in fact, I&#039;ve seen SAW go to the mat for white writers who&#039;ve done a good job of portraying cultures not their own (e.g., Karen Healey, Michael Dante DiMartino and Bryan Konietzko).  She&#039;s objecting to the *perspective* of the story, which is the same story we usually see when white people write about Africa -- that Africans need saving by white people, whether their saviors are white-led aid organizations or a white-skinned goddess.  Why can&#039;t we have a story where Africans save themselves? A white writer could just as easily have made the heroine an African woman saving her own people (and who maybe remembered to put on clothing more practical than a leopard-skin bikini).

I&#039;m pretty sad that you shut SAW down for her choice of words, which is just another turn on The Tone Argument (http://zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com/429092.html, http://theangryblackwoman.com/2008/02/12/the-privilege-of-politeness/).  You have a right to restrict your blog comments however you choose, but in this case, I think you&#039;ve missed out on an opportunity to learn.  The worst thing that SAW said was that you didn&#039;t comprehend something, that if you did more reading you&#039;d be able to understand where she was coming from, and I have to say that I feel her arguments are valid.

Me personally?  Seeing the perspective that the story&#039;s coming from, the fact that the characters on the cover are scantily-clad, not to mention the fact that the white character&#039;s being billed as &quot;loving&quot; while the black character is &quot;vengeful&quot; -- that&#039;s quacking and walking enough like a duck for me to give this series a pass, unless I hear a review that changes my mind substantially. I don&#039;t feel like I owe the creator the benefit of any doubt, any more than I felt I owed James Cameron the benefit of the doubt for Avatar, nor M. Night Shymalan for the whitewashed A:TLA movie.  

Also, the &quot;What these people need is a Honky&quot; is a common trope-phrase coined by an acquaintance of mine, Vito Excalibur, all the way back in 2007 (http://oyceter.livejournal.com/602541.html), and which has received quite a bit of airplay since  (http://www.tor.com/blogs/2009/12/fantasy-vs-science-fiction-james-camerons-ligavatarlig).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I realize that this is way late, and reviving a dead thread (life&#8217;s been a whirlwind lately), but I just need to comment for the record that I, too, support Seeking Avalon&#8217;s Willow in her concerns about this project.  SAW&#8217;s never said that &#8220;white people can’t write about or be concerned about African problems&#8221; &#8212; in fact, I&#8217;ve seen SAW go to the mat for white writers who&#8217;ve done a good job of portraying cultures not their own (e.g., Karen Healey, Michael Dante DiMartino and Bryan Konietzko).  She&#8217;s objecting to the *perspective* of the story, which is the same story we usually see when white people write about Africa &#8212; that Africans need saving by white people, whether their saviors are white-led aid organizations or a white-skinned goddess.  Why can&#8217;t we have a story where Africans save themselves? A white writer could just as easily have made the heroine an African woman saving her own people (and who maybe remembered to put on clothing more practical than a leopard-skin bikini).</p>
<p>I&#8217;m pretty sad that you shut SAW down for her choice of words, which is just another turn on The Tone Argument (<a href="http://zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com/429092.html" rel="nofollow">http://zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com/429092.html</a>, <a href="http://theangryblackwoman.com/2008/02/12/the-privilege-of-politeness/" rel="nofollow">http://theangryblackwoman.com/2008/02/12/the-privilege-of-politeness/</a>).  You have a right to restrict your blog comments however you choose, but in this case, I think you&#8217;ve missed out on an opportunity to learn.  The worst thing that SAW said was that you didn&#8217;t comprehend something, that if you did more reading you&#8217;d be able to understand where she was coming from, and I have to say that I feel her arguments are valid.</p>
<p>Me personally?  Seeing the perspective that the story&#8217;s coming from, the fact that the characters on the cover are scantily-clad, not to mention the fact that the white character&#8217;s being billed as &#8220;loving&#8221; while the black character is &#8220;vengeful&#8221; &#8212; that&#8217;s quacking and walking enough like a duck for me to give this series a pass, unless I hear a review that changes my mind substantially. I don&#8217;t feel like I owe the creator the benefit of any doubt, any more than I felt I owed James Cameron the benefit of the doubt for Avatar, nor M. Night Shymalan for the whitewashed A:TLA movie.  </p>
<p>Also, the &#8220;What these people need is a Honky&#8221; is a common trope-phrase coined by an acquaintance of mine, Vito Excalibur, all the way back in 2007 (<a href="http://oyceter.livejournal.com/602541.html" rel="nofollow">http://oyceter.livejournal.com/602541.html</a>), and which has received quite a bit of airplay since  (<a href="http://www.tor.com/blogs/2009/12/fantasy-vs-science-fiction-james-camerons-ligavatarlig" rel="nofollow">http://www.tor.com/blogs/2009/12/fantasy-vs-science-fiction-james-camerons-ligavatarlig</a>).</p>
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		<title>By: Johanna</title>
		<link>http://comicsworthreading.com/2010/08/03/what-makes-a-jungle-girl-different-more-on-savage-beauty/comment-page-1/#comment-114397</link>
		<dc:creator>Johanna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Sep 2010 13:52:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://comicsworthreading.com/?p=13856#comment-114397</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I suspect they won&#039;t be returning to this particular thread, but if I can hazard a guess -- the writer, Mike Bullock, had previously written a number of Phantom comics. He may like that jungle adventure setting and wanted to find another way to approach it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suspect they won&#8217;t be returning to this particular thread, but if I can hazard a guess &#8212; the writer, Mike Bullock, had previously written a number of Phantom comics. He may like that jungle adventure setting and wanted to find another way to approach it.</p>
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		<title>By: Requiem</title>
		<link>http://comicsworthreading.com/2010/08/03/what-makes-a-jungle-girl-different-more-on-savage-beauty/comment-page-1/#comment-114275</link>
		<dc:creator>Requiem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Aug 2010 16:39:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://comicsworthreading.com/?p=13856#comment-114275</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My question for the creators of this title: why do you feel the Jungle Girl genre Needs to be brought back? What do you aim to do with this trope that Couldn&#039;t have been done without it? I think some tropes may be so inherently problematic and hurtful that they should be allowed to die. This is one of them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My question for the creators of this title: why do you feel the Jungle Girl genre Needs to be brought back? What do you aim to do with this trope that Couldn&#8217;t have been done without it? I think some tropes may be so inherently problematic and hurtful that they should be allowed to die. This is one of them.</p>
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		<title>By: Comic2read</title>
		<link>http://comicsworthreading.com/2010/08/03/what-makes-a-jungle-girl-different-more-on-savage-beauty/comment-page-1/#comment-114262</link>
		<dc:creator>Comic2read</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Aug 2010 18:03:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://comicsworthreading.com/?p=13856#comment-114262</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m looking forward to this book.
I think Ed and company will do a good job. The covers look really nice.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m looking forward to this book.<br />
I think Ed and company will do a good job. The covers look really nice.</p>
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		<title>By: Emburii</title>
		<link>http://comicsworthreading.com/2010/08/03/what-makes-a-jungle-girl-different-more-on-savage-beauty/comment-page-1/#comment-114156</link>
		<dc:creator>Emburii</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Aug 2010 06:50:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://comicsworthreading.com/?p=13856#comment-114156</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It was indeed sarcasm, numol.  :)  Though, given the uninflected nature of the medium, the confusion is understandable.  I apologize to anyone I hurt with my clumsy attempt at humor.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It was indeed sarcasm, numol.  :)  Though, given the uninflected nature of the medium, the confusion is understandable.  I apologize to anyone I hurt with my clumsy attempt at humor.</p>
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		<title>By: numol</title>
		<link>http://comicsworthreading.com/2010/08/03/what-makes-a-jungle-girl-different-more-on-savage-beauty/comment-page-1/#comment-114152</link>
		<dc:creator>numol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Aug 2010 22:56:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://comicsworthreading.com/?p=13856#comment-114152</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hrm, I see Johanna and Mike still aren&#039;t actually reading many of these posts (or maybe they&#039;re just seeing what they want to see).

Emburii, I co-sign with all the points you made.  However, I have to ask: were you being sarcastic when you said [emphasis mine] &quot;&lt;i&gt;I&#039;m pretty sure even&lt;/i&gt; Africans can...&quot;?  Because in the context of the rest of your post it sounds like sarcasm, but if not, I fail to see how Africans being awesome would warrant an &quot;even&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hrm, I see Johanna and Mike still aren&#8217;t actually reading many of these posts (or maybe they&#8217;re just seeing what they want to see).</p>
<p>Emburii, I co-sign with all the points you made.  However, I have to ask: were you being sarcastic when you said [emphasis mine] &#8220;<i>I&#8217;m pretty sure even</i> Africans can&#8230;&#8221;?  Because in the context of the rest of your post it sounds like sarcasm, but if not, I fail to see how Africans being awesome would warrant an &#8220;even&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Emburii</title>
		<link>http://comicsworthreading.com/2010/08/03/what-makes-a-jungle-girl-different-more-on-savage-beauty/comment-page-1/#comment-114141</link>
		<dc:creator>Emburii</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Aug 2010 21:45:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://comicsworthreading.com/?p=13856#comment-114141</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Do you really need the white woman in this book?  If so, why?  If the answer is &#039;marketing&#039; or reaching an audience, then I would like to point out that you&#039;re exploiting some of the same pain you hate for white people&#039;s amusement. 

Also, it all seems very one-sided.  I&#039;m pretty sure even Africans can fall in love, work successfully as a community sometimes, and actually have lives outside of being misererable on camera for white people&#039;s charities.  Focusing only on how every African life is so wretched [and by implication needs a white woman in the story to &#039;lighten it up&#039; and give them hope] in the initial promo stuff, rather than putting any emphasis on how the folks themselves rebuild or recover or fight back, is just one reason why this has been getting a dubious representation.

Telling a Black woman that she&#039;s being too angry [read: &#039;uppity&#039;] doesn&#039;t help.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do you really need the white woman in this book?  If so, why?  If the answer is &#8216;marketing&#8217; or reaching an audience, then I would like to point out that you&#8217;re exploiting some of the same pain you hate for white people&#8217;s amusement. </p>
<p>Also, it all seems very one-sided.  I&#8217;m pretty sure even Africans can fall in love, work successfully as a community sometimes, and actually have lives outside of being misererable on camera for white people&#8217;s charities.  Focusing only on how every African life is so wretched [and by implication needs a white woman in the story to 'lighten it up' and give them hope] in the initial promo stuff, rather than putting any emphasis on how the folks themselves rebuild or recover or fight back, is just one reason why this has been getting a dubious representation.</p>
<p>Telling a Black woman that she&#8217;s being too angry [read: 'uppity'] doesn&#8217;t help.</p>
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		<title>By: Johanna</title>
		<link>http://comicsworthreading.com/2010/08/03/what-makes-a-jungle-girl-different-more-on-savage-beauty/comment-page-1/#comment-114047</link>
		<dc:creator>Johanna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Aug 2010 00:08:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://comicsworthreading.com/?p=13856#comment-114047</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Suzene, as I said above, that&#039;s a good point. I&#039;m not sure that anything could be said prior to publication that would successfully address the concerns, given how the conversation has turned, though. And I suspect that those put off by the concept aren&#039;t going to be part of the audience, either, although that doesn&#039;t excuse any potential problems.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Suzene, as I said above, that&#8217;s a good point. I&#8217;m not sure that anything could be said prior to publication that would successfully address the concerns, given how the conversation has turned, though. And I suspect that those put off by the concept aren&#8217;t going to be part of the audience, either, although that doesn&#8217;t excuse any potential problems.</p>
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		<title>By: Johanna</title>
		<link>http://comicsworthreading.com/2010/08/03/what-makes-a-jungle-girl-different-more-on-savage-beauty/comment-page-1/#comment-114044</link>
		<dc:creator>Johanna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Aug 2010 00:03:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://comicsworthreading.com/?p=13856#comment-114044</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Numol, you&#039;re jumping to conclusions. I&#039;m not telling people not to voice their worries -- I&#039;m saying that here, at my site, they need to do it in a way that&#039;s not insulting to other participants. (Suzene&#039;s post is a great example, and I agree with her concerns.) If you can&#039;t make your points without calling other people names, then your argument isn&#039;t as strong as you think it is. Your assumptions about me are baseless, by the way, and your impression of my &quot;argument&quot; is wrong. But I assume that if you really want to know, you&#039;ll ask, instead of writing your own strawmen. 

Mike, thanks for clarifying.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Numol, you&#8217;re jumping to conclusions. I&#8217;m not telling people not to voice their worries &#8212; I&#8217;m saying that here, at my site, they need to do it in a way that&#8217;s not insulting to other participants. (Suzene&#8217;s post is a great example, and I agree with her concerns.) If you can&#8217;t make your points without calling other people names, then your argument isn&#8217;t as strong as you think it is. Your assumptions about me are baseless, by the way, and your impression of my &#8220;argument&#8221; is wrong. But I assume that if you really want to know, you&#8217;ll ask, instead of writing your own strawmen. </p>
<p>Mike, thanks for clarifying.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Bullock</title>
		<link>http://comicsworthreading.com/2010/08/03/what-makes-a-jungle-girl-different-more-on-savage-beauty/comment-page-1/#comment-114039</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Bullock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Aug 2010 23:22:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://comicsworthreading.com/?p=13856#comment-114039</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I told myself (and Johanna) that I wouldn&#039;t respond again in this thread, as I really feel I&#039;m being attacked unfairly and lumped in with people who have done things I abhor. 

However, after re-reading my last post when I&#039;m no longer &quot;in the moment&quot;, I do feel I posted poorly and for that, I apologize to anyone and everyone I offended. 

For the record, the intent of this book was never to harm anyone, to shed a negative light on good people or to label any peoples in any way. 

The idea was to put a new twist on an old genre, to update it in a socially conscious, morally just way. Ed Catto, Joe Ahearn and myself aimed to take the themes we (myself and the wonderful artists I&#039;ve had the pleasure of working with) explored in the pages of Phantom and continue exploring them in a new book with new characters. 

While this is certainly no Unknown Soldier, it&#039;s not Tarzan or Princess Pantha either. It&#039;s about shedding light on real villains (who are harming real people) in the only way we know how through the comic book medium. 

In Phantom, we helped draw attention to Joseph Kony, helped raise funds for Invisible Children and spread awareness of real issues that effect not only the people in Uganda, the Sudan, DR Congo and other countries, but all over the world. The idea that men like Kony can act with impunity while any man, woman or child ignores it boils my blood. 

My disconnect (and resulting mental short circuit) is how anyone could deem that prejudice and then label me a &quot;honky racist&quot;. How this went from trying to raise awareness for a comic that&#039;s about raising awareness, to people burning me in effigy for daring to write heroic fiction in Eastern Africa is beyond me. 

For the record, racism is evil and not only do I not condone it, I cheer for the day it&#039;ll be as relevant as witch burnings in Salem or doctors using leeches to suck out disease. It&#039;s ignorant, immoral and downright uncivilized.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I told myself (and Johanna) that I wouldn&#8217;t respond again in this thread, as I really feel I&#8217;m being attacked unfairly and lumped in with people who have done things I abhor. </p>
<p>However, after re-reading my last post when I&#8217;m no longer &#8220;in the moment&#8221;, I do feel I posted poorly and for that, I apologize to anyone and everyone I offended. </p>
<p>For the record, the intent of this book was never to harm anyone, to shed a negative light on good people or to label any peoples in any way. </p>
<p>The idea was to put a new twist on an old genre, to update it in a socially conscious, morally just way. Ed Catto, Joe Ahearn and myself aimed to take the themes we (myself and the wonderful artists I&#8217;ve had the pleasure of working with) explored in the pages of Phantom and continue exploring them in a new book with new characters. </p>
<p>While this is certainly no Unknown Soldier, it&#8217;s not Tarzan or Princess Pantha either. It&#8217;s about shedding light on real villains (who are harming real people) in the only way we know how through the comic book medium. </p>
<p>In Phantom, we helped draw attention to Joseph Kony, helped raise funds for Invisible Children and spread awareness of real issues that effect not only the people in Uganda, the Sudan, DR Congo and other countries, but all over the world. The idea that men like Kony can act with impunity while any man, woman or child ignores it boils my blood. </p>
<p>My disconnect (and resulting mental short circuit) is how anyone could deem that prejudice and then label me a &#8220;honky racist&#8221;. How this went from trying to raise awareness for a comic that&#8217;s about raising awareness, to people burning me in effigy for daring to write heroic fiction in Eastern Africa is beyond me. </p>
<p>For the record, racism is evil and not only do I not condone it, I cheer for the day it&#8217;ll be as relevant as witch burnings in Salem or doctors using leeches to suck out disease. It&#8217;s ignorant, immoral and downright uncivilized.</p>
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		<title>By: Suzene</title>
		<link>http://comicsworthreading.com/2010/08/03/what-makes-a-jungle-girl-different-more-on-savage-beauty/comment-page-1/#comment-114033</link>
		<dc:creator>Suzene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:37:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://comicsworthreading.com/?p=13856#comment-114033</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;No one is saying that the concerns are baseless or unjustified in general.&quot;

With all due respect, Johanna, I have to disagree. The writer of the work in question posted in order to do just that. I&#039;ve enjoyed Mr. Bullock&#039;s work on &quot;Lions, Tigers, and Bears&quot;, so I find his response disappointing. No, the book hasn&#039;t hit shelves yet, but when the &quot;hardly anything&quot; that&#039;s been put out there in order to build anticipation for the title is already raising valid concerns about the racist tropes ingrained in the genre, it&#039;s far from reassuring that one of the creators involved would rather lurch toward ad hominem and dismiss the poster rather than address the points that have been brought up. You voiced your distaste over the fact that the book appeared to be continuing the tradition of gratuitous T&amp;A that&#039;s so often a part of the jungle-girl genre, even admitting that you did so in a snarky manner, and yet you got a response that at least attempted to address your concerns about the book&#039;s merit. I&#039;m not seeing why the posters who are doing the same in regards to problematic traditions dealing with race should merit less.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;No one is saying that the concerns are baseless or unjustified in general.&#8221;</p>
<p>With all due respect, Johanna, I have to disagree. The writer of the work in question posted in order to do just that. I&#8217;ve enjoyed Mr. Bullock&#8217;s work on &#8220;Lions, Tigers, and Bears&#8221;, so I find his response disappointing. No, the book hasn&#8217;t hit shelves yet, but when the &#8220;hardly anything&#8221; that&#8217;s been put out there in order to build anticipation for the title is already raising valid concerns about the racist tropes ingrained in the genre, it&#8217;s far from reassuring that one of the creators involved would rather lurch toward ad hominem and dismiss the poster rather than address the points that have been brought up. You voiced your distaste over the fact that the book appeared to be continuing the tradition of gratuitous T&amp;A that&#8217;s so often a part of the jungle-girl genre, even admitting that you did so in a snarky manner, and yet you got a response that at least attempted to address your concerns about the book&#8217;s merit. I&#8217;m not seeing why the posters who are doing the same in regards to problematic traditions dealing with race should merit less.</p>
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		<title>By: numol</title>
		<link>http://comicsworthreading.com/2010/08/03/what-makes-a-jungle-girl-different-more-on-savage-beauty/comment-page-1/#comment-114032</link>
		<dc:creator>numol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:33:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://comicsworthreading.com/?p=13856#comment-114032</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[* Dreamwidth, not Livejournal.  Sorry for the confusion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>* Dreamwidth, not Livejournal.  Sorry for the confusion.</p>
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		<title>By: numol</title>
		<link>http://comicsworthreading.com/2010/08/03/what-makes-a-jungle-girl-different-more-on-savage-beauty/comment-page-1/#comment-114031</link>
		<dc:creator>numol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:13:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://comicsworthreading.com/?p=13856#comment-114031</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[All this whining about civility is just a shield against criticism.  This same exact conversation (almost word for word) has gone around and around so many times it&#039;s like a Mobius strip.  As such, &lt;a href=&quot;http://ephemere.dreamwidth.org/16818.html?format=light&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&#039;s an excellent post&lt;/a&gt; by ephemere over at Livejournal, written in response to a similar incident a while back that saw the same defensive posturing and the same silly excuses.  She was more personally involved (again, White person here -- never been on the receiving end of racism), has been through this sort of thing more than I have, and is smarter and more eloquent than I am, and so her post explains the flaws in your reasoning better than I ever.


As for this particular conversation, nobody said that Whites aren&#039;t &lt;i&gt;capable&lt;/i&gt; of writing characters of Color without being racist; it&#039;s just that when we try, it &lt;i&gt;usually&lt;/i&gt; doesn&#039;t go well, so there&#039;s reason to be suspicious -- especially when the context is so creepy and evokes hideous stereotypes.  Nobody said the privileged are always wrong, either; your attempts at playing the martyr aren&#039;t working here.

As for the assertion that People of Color should just eat the sh** sandwich and not voice their concerns and hurt about ideas and stories they find racist &lt;i&gt;just because the author was well-meaning&lt;/i&gt;?  That&#039;s... really.  I mean if that&#039;s your argument, can&#039;t you see how ridiculous it is?  And using said argument to blame people who complain about racism (most of whom are People of Color and therefore &lt;i&gt;on the receiving end of it&lt;/i&gt;) for &lt;i&gt;perpetuating racism by doing so&lt;/i&gt;?  You really believe that?  And you expect to be able to say so without anybody getting angry?  Nobody&#039;s knocking your right to free speech, but &lt;i&gt;think&lt;/i&gt; once and a while, &lt;i&gt;listen&lt;/i&gt; to people who know the problem better than you possibly can, before you decide you&#039;re some kind of expert and can&#039;t possibly be wrong.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All this whining about civility is just a shield against criticism.  This same exact conversation (almost word for word) has gone around and around so many times it&#8217;s like a Mobius strip.  As such, <a href="http://ephemere.dreamwidth.org/16818.html?format=light" rel="nofollow">here&#8217;s an excellent post</a> by ephemere over at Livejournal, written in response to a similar incident a while back that saw the same defensive posturing and the same silly excuses.  She was more personally involved (again, White person here &#8212; never been on the receiving end of racism), has been through this sort of thing more than I have, and is smarter and more eloquent than I am, and so her post explains the flaws in your reasoning better than I ever.</p>
<p>As for this particular conversation, nobody said that Whites aren&#8217;t <i>capable</i> of writing characters of Color without being racist; it&#8217;s just that when we try, it <i>usually</i> doesn&#8217;t go well, so there&#8217;s reason to be suspicious &#8212; especially when the context is so creepy and evokes hideous stereotypes.  Nobody said the privileged are always wrong, either; your attempts at playing the martyr aren&#8217;t working here.</p>
<p>As for the assertion that People of Color should just eat the sh** sandwich and not voice their concerns and hurt about ideas and stories they find racist <i>just because the author was well-meaning</i>?  That&#8217;s&#8230; really.  I mean if that&#8217;s your argument, can&#8217;t you see how ridiculous it is?  And using said argument to blame people who complain about racism (most of whom are People of Color and therefore <i>on the receiving end of it</i>) for <i>perpetuating racism by doing so</i>?  You really believe that?  And you expect to be able to say so without anybody getting angry?  Nobody&#8217;s knocking your right to free speech, but <i>think</i> once and a while, <i>listen</i> to people who know the problem better than you possibly can, before you decide you&#8217;re some kind of expert and can&#8217;t possibly be wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Johanna</title>
		<link>http://comicsworthreading.com/2010/08/03/what-makes-a-jungle-girl-different-more-on-savage-beauty/comment-page-1/#comment-114008</link>
		<dc:creator>Johanna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:55:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://comicsworthreading.com/?p=13856#comment-114008</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Please, keep it civil. 

No one is saying that the concerns are baseless or unjustified in general. In this particular case, however, I am saying that we can&#039;t say that this specific comic is racist until we actually read it. And the creators get the benefit of the doubt from me because A) I&#039;ve spoken with them in person and know that they mean well, if nothing else and B) they were willing to come here and discuss the book and its circumstances. 

This isn&#039;t the first time I&#039;ve seen this go-round, by the way. I&#039;ve seen this pattern before. Let me describe it as I see it: Well-meaning creator tries to write black character in a comic story. Creator maybe is a little naive, needs some assistance, but anti-racism crusaders jump on anyone who gets any part of it wrong, lumping them in with extremists and bigots and blaming creator for ills of entire system. Creator becomes incredibly gunshy and goes back to writing only white characters. The end result is a continuation of institutional racism because it&#039;s not worth the trouble and taking the name-calling. 

I understand that there&#039;s a lot of history to remedy, but making enemies out of those who would otherwise be your allies because they aren&#039;t ideologically pure enough doesn&#039;t strike me as a useful strategy. (I know, I&#039;m privileged, I must be wrong about all this.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please, keep it civil. </p>
<p>No one is saying that the concerns are baseless or unjustified in general. In this particular case, however, I am saying that we can&#8217;t say that this specific comic is racist until we actually read it. And the creators get the benefit of the doubt from me because A) I&#8217;ve spoken with them in person and know that they mean well, if nothing else and B) they were willing to come here and discuss the book and its circumstances. </p>
<p>This isn&#8217;t the first time I&#8217;ve seen this go-round, by the way. I&#8217;ve seen this pattern before. Let me describe it as I see it: Well-meaning creator tries to write black character in a comic story. Creator maybe is a little naive, needs some assistance, but anti-racism crusaders jump on anyone who gets any part of it wrong, lumping them in with extremists and bigots and blaming creator for ills of entire system. Creator becomes incredibly gunshy and goes back to writing only white characters. The end result is a continuation of institutional racism because it&#8217;s not worth the trouble and taking the name-calling. </p>
<p>I understand that there&#8217;s a lot of history to remedy, but making enemies out of those who would otherwise be your allies because they aren&#8217;t ideologically pure enough doesn&#8217;t strike me as a useful strategy. (I know, I&#8217;m privileged, I must be wrong about all this.)</p>
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